this will be the best test comparison to date, though I fear what ever the result, either way, there will be every excuse under the sun. Fiesta ST Forum is the premier Fiesta ST community. External surface area is going to have to be close enough given the fin pitches are a non varible from both manufacturers. When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com Contact: ACKits.com For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. You will notice that plate and fin coolers with the same rating as tube and fin coolers are smaller in size. This highly efficient fin type provides a very large surface area that helps evenly distribute heat. Fwiw, I don't know if my intercooler is bar and plate or tube and fin. Now some people see this as an advantage. In a stacking platform Manufacturing process. Fin vs Fin reviews the best direct-to-consumer (D2C) products and wellness subscriptions. Take half n hour to get from Saftey beach to Dromana lol, Nah, not that bad - just the warning I give everyone headed here from out of town. http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/engine/0304-turp-intercooler/, https://www.fiestastforum.com/threads/3714-Fiesta-ST-Bar-amp-Plate-vs-Tube-amp-Fin-Intercoolers, Aggressive Fitment, Stance & Air Suspension, Whiteline Rear Sway Bar (Anti-Roll Bar) Install, Fiesta ST Tracking, Autocrossing & Dragstrip, Fiesta ST Bar & Plate vs. Tube & Fin Intercoolers. Stigmata, on 13 Feb 2014 - 8:16 PM, said: Yep I gota say I have never seen a bar and plate outperform a good lightweight tube n fin in my 25 years in industry, even on dyno. This will take me a fair amount of time as I need to squeeze it all in between jobs. 4" P/B wins hands down for a centrifugal supercharger. Depriving your engine of oil is certainly not something you want to do. It is often categorized as a compact heat exchanger to emphasise its relatively high heat transfer surface area to volume ratio. I wouldn't over think it. One fluid goes through the tubes, and the second goes through the larger shell, surrounding the tubes. Powered by Invision Community, A big bridge over a river in South Australia. Was living at Safety Beach years ago. FordXR6Turbo.com Its not as simple as whats written above. Bar and plate 12.5kg. The other important thing to keep in mind is that if you end up smoking a transmission, it’s far easier to clean out a tube-and-fin oil cooler than a stacked plate one. Low-fin tubing is made in a variety of alloys and configurations. Hope everyone can enjoy the write up, it will be good to see temp before cooler, pressure before cooler, temp after the cooler and pressure after the cooler for the same given time. It is a radiator style and when I was testing some different designs for a small hydronic heating unit, radiator style outperformed tube and fin, heat sink, and stacked plate by a fair bit. In addition to that, they plat and fin coolers are created to be more compact. The number of fins per inch of tube length ranges from 11 to 43; fin height varies from about 0.02 to 0.125 in., and fin thickness ranges from 0.01 in. A good starting point is to write down a plan and stick to that....IMO. Nortek also is big in MC, actually using them in heat pumps and in A coils. Although the principals of Plate Heat Exchangers are very similar to Shell and Tube the construction is very different. I am not exactly toting around Bill Gates or Oprah money but do not want to put junk on my car. This is due to something called laminar flow which is another topic in itself. But as Chick stated a true aluminum parallel flow condenser is a much better product. The bar and plate has 23 flow tubes, while the tube and fin has only 19. Before Van Nuys they were located in West LA on Olympic. Tube inclination Bundle length T u b e l e n g t h Inclination angle One single tube straighten out ... Plate-fin heat exchanger Principal function. Nor do I really care. Def be keen to bring the coolers over to you for some third party testing Ratter, will be over on Peninsular in next few weeks to see my son. They are stronger and lighter and still have excellent crossflow. Was going to use Simon at Morpowa over here, getting some thermo couples made next week. Aluminum alloy plate fin heat exchangers have been used in the aircraft industry for 50 years and in cryogenics and chemical plant for 35 years. Will drop in and say hello. Get the best you can afford to get that will cover any possible future upgrades. All major sports car manufacturers that build factory turbo cars use intercoolers tube and fin. If you are on the fence about which cooler to buy...buy the tube and fin....I will send you my product at no cost...have your tuner back to back the two.....if the tube and fin performs better send my product back and I will pay for the tube and fin product....ask the tube and fin fella if he will offer the same guarantee. Don't want to miss anything. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register. JavaScript is disabled. Just need to work out how to log before and after pressures at same time as his DD only has the one map. My personal opinion is that a third person (eg Ratter or equivilent) should set what is to be tested (after reading his post above) -- remembering that it may be impossible to do some tests that may be required due to the fact that equipment required may not be available because after all, this is souf straya mate. Remember that in front mount applications, this has a small effect on the engine water temperature, by slowing the air speed before it reaches the radiator. This test is not to be biased in anyway whatsoever as I am open to both types of cores. Typically, a modular cooler (such as the Earl’s coolers shown in the photos below) will reject as much as three times the heat for a given area than a tube-and-fin cooler. This efficient cooling system will cost you more than the tube-fin cooler. Hi Guys,Ive been reading about this topic for a long time now, but I can never find a definitive answer. Tube and Fin have better flow and will cool back down faster once it is heated. I's and V's Keep to the speed limit and you'll be fine. on a build that is non-specific for a street car I look at 3 factors. Bit better shot of the fins but still not best lighting. On the flip side, I don't know how much turbulence the radiator style would induce in … We offer one of the largest collection of Fiesta ST related news, gallery and technical articles. On the scales the tube and fin core is almost 5kg lighter than the bar and plate. Bar and plate (on left) Vs. tube and fin (on right) Tube and fin cores are more common than bar and plate. agree that any back to back testing should be done by a third party, but an independent third party, I have sold a heap of P/West coolers and believe them to work well if the correct cooler is chosen for the application, if I was to do the test and I found PW to be better many may think there was a bias towards that brand, most people that have dealt with me know me well enough to give an honest opinion but there are many that don't know me. The Derale cooler is … The flow area was calculated and I didn't expect this much of a difference to be … Earlier bar and plate coolers didn't have offset internal fins but rather a straight pressed configuration. Traditional tube and fin coils are the most common coils we sell. How effective is the stacked plate, modular design in comparison to a more common tube-and-fin arrangement? Hope that makes sense, Anyway here are some pics. Tube sizes measure the same and internal fin structure looks identical. Blue track/street build - salvage restoration. They are also used in railway engines and motor cars. If there are any other requests let me know anyone as I dont want to do this twice lol. Hello all, I have been shopping for an Intercooler. In the Plate Fin design, tube holes are pressed in thin sheets of metal, where tubes are inserted and then expanded. Typically… In tube and fin coils, the refrigerant moves through the tubes and exchanges heat in … The other important thing to keep in mind is that if you end up smoking a transmission, it's far easier to clean out a tube-and-fin oil cooler than a stacked plate one. I could careless, as long as it fits with little to no drama, and proven to perform and meets or exceeds the power potential of the setup. I met George Spears and his wife at his shop located in Van Nuys in the '90s and used his core on my A2 GLI custom turbo with a Turbo Technics manifold as a base. Thanks for doing this Stigmata. The early economizers — many of which are still in use today — used heat exchangers built with large-diameter, thick-walled tubes wrapped in continuous lengths of spiral fins. The next most interesting thing is total flow area of the two cores. Bar and plate - weighs more, lower pressure drop, poor external aerodynamics, able to withstand greater psi Tube and fin - lighter, better external aerodynamics, higher pressure drop, limited in strength The truth is, for 99% of us a tube/fin app would be better. For obvious reasons thermal transfer rates are varied greatly by the amount of time the charge air spends within the coolers tubes to exchange thermal energy with the atmosphere. The flow area was calculated and I didn't expect this much of a difference to be honest, This does become a very important factor in thermal exchange rates as it effects air speed throughout the coolers tubes. Plate Fin . Plate-fin and tube-fin heat exchangers have found application in a wide variety of industries. By I guess it will be starting to get busy as down that way too coming upto the silly season. The prototypical shell and tube heat exchanger has only one inner tube, and is typically used to teach engineering students the basic concept of a heat exchanger. Stacked Plate vs. Tube-and-Fin Coolers. The tube and fin core being used is the latest offering from Europe with thin laser welded tubes and also an internal offset fin arrangement. Great work Jon! You must log in or register to reply here. When I order intercooler core I specify a very dense fin configuration...it costs more but it works :-). Cant wait to see the results. Ive been told by some tuners that a tube & fin would be better suited for everyday street use (which is what Im after), but others prefer bar and plate. ModBargains.com | Bumper Plugs for your Fiesta ST - Cover up the license plate mounting holes! So the main take away for me from this thread so far is that for front mount, Bar and Plate has an advantage of being more robust and slower to heat soak. There is internal volume and internal / external surface area. The offsetting of internal fins helps further the increase internal surface area which is so vital to efficient thermal transfer as well as helping turbulate the charge air. Bar and plate designs are consistently reported as more damage resistant which gives them the edge with regard to appearance longevity. 1. tube and fin 2. bar and plate There is much debate as to which construction method is best. Ford thought the radiator was adequate on our Fiesta ST and that has proven to not be the case. Stainless steel plate fins have been used in aircraft for 30 years and are now becoming established in … Evo IX and X vs. 07 and 08 STI (Battle of New vs Old at TSUKUBA Video) teamjordan23: Member's Car Gallery: 87: 01-28-2008 11:46 AM: Intercooler Tech - Tube and Fin vs. Bar and Plate: Innovative Tuning: Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.0L Turbo) 6: 12-15-2005 10:31 AM ('93-'01) AWD vs. RWD vs. FWD and Boxer vs. Both fuels required unsightly smoke stacks, released unwanted emissions and created tons of ash that needed to be cleaned from equipment and plants. Technically they were never designed for automotive applications. A plate-fin heat exchanger is a type of heat exchanger design that uses plates and finned chambers to transfer heat between fluids. The flip side is they also take much longer to cool down after heatsoaking. Obviously internal volume is a direct reflection on flow area X the tube lengths given? Cold-box. Below is a comparison with the core I use (on the right). Vacuum brazing of block. Wait till you build them. Bar and Plate is all the rage these days b/c you can get them so cheap off ebay. Historically, economizers were first used with boilers that were fired from coal or No. how far do you wanna take it? Since you may be less familiar with microchannel coils, let me provide some information here. BAR AND FIN.....Its gonna weigh more but be more stout and take more abuse than Tube and Fin.....there are tons of intercoolers out there. They aslo do not flow air as well making them inefficent. Results will be interesting. What are the power output limits of the stock engine on 93. That is one hell of a good guarantee and please don't get me wrong here, I'm not trying to start anything by pointing this out and I'm deffinately no fanboy of one style or the other. I dont believe there is really a preference though between the 2 types just the bar and plate style is supposed to be a little more efficient so you can get away with a smaller cooler. Each has their place and both have greatly different costs. Therefore, they can easily be integrated into a full vehicle. Make the end tanks the same volume. Then fill them with liquid and measure. Bar and Plate are denser cores from amphysical build standpoint which translates to they take longer to heatsoak. 1801 Waters Ridge Drive, Lewisville, TX 75057 . Its tube n fin for me too, Don't ignore the data....one cooler is not slightly better than the other...it's a total smack down...I knew what the result of this back to back test would be before it happened....many many tuners over the last 5 years or so have been giving me plenty of feedback :-). Will be logging it all for sure. 6 diesel oil. Unlike many "extruded" tube designs which are rather heavy and are fast becoming dated. The difference between the plate and fin style, # D13504, and the tube and fin style cooler, # D12904, is that the plate and fin models can cool better than the tube and fin models. The bar and plate has 23 flow tubes, while the tube and fin has only 19. If you are quoting numbers there is a lot more to it than flow area. Using oem is a poor example. Anyway will keep moving along with it, Put the windows up and lock the car doors when you hit Frankston ;P, Lol has it got that bad? The tube and fin measures in at 480mm x 430 x 100mm thick. Right now, it will just need to support a few modest mods (think bolt on parts with a tune), but I wouldn't mind having the option of growing into it if I ever go crazy and start looking at turbo options. There two main … Contact . Welding headers and leak testing. What is your plan for your car? Fin patterns. to about 0.015 in. Not quite...the bar and plate core you have is very open in its fin configuration. Almost everybody makes fin tube in residential splits. Unfortunately graphs are too small to show any small differences. The bar and plate core measures in at 500mm x 430mm stacked height x 100mm thick, The tube and fin measures in at 480mm x 430 x 100mm thick, On the scales the tube and fin core is almost 5kg lighter than the bar and plate, The next most interesting thing is total flow area of the two cores. The filter installs inline with the oil lines and a thermostat will block the flow of oil until the specific temperature is reached. I only ask this because of the post below, http://www.fordxr6turbo.com/forum/topic/87411-plaz-vs-process-west/?p=1455069, Posted by Process West on 13 February 2014 - 09:05 PM. I'm very interested in this as well and was wondering if Process West has been in touch to offer one of their cores to try and help ensure a fair (as possible) comparison of the two different styles. Heres some pics of the core internals of a mates stepped cooler. Tube and Fin 7.6kg. Basically, the plate and fin cooler provides more surface area to extract heat from the transmission oil and also has internal … I think you will be surprised.. Ok if you would like me to do that Arrom no problems at all. The fins can be waffled or rippled for greater efficiency. All I know is it is a lot better than stock. If the flow area is small then air speed is higher than that of a larger flow area where charge air will have more time for effective thermal transfer. Stigmata, 26/10/14 10:58 AM in Intercooler Workshop. Martin Donnan may have multiple sensors on his Dyno and would be a good independednt 3rd party I would think, another option is Brett West at APE, Mainline use to state that he would put the dyno through it's paces more so than any other user, You need to be a member in order to leave a comment. Okay so after lots of requests I have decided to run a back to back test between a bar and plate core and a tube and fin core. It's easy! This debate has been covered many times and their are pros and cons for both types, just do a google search "bar and plate tube and fin" There is more to it than just the costruction of the core, the size of the core and the end tank design has a big bearing on … Used to hate it at chrissy time. This is excellent that you're doing this off your own back Jon. Microchannel coils are a different type of condenser coil. The Derale Tube-Fin Oil Cooler # D15551 does not use a thermostat. Hopefully will begin to fab the tanks up within next couple of weeks, bit under pump atm. The bar and plate core was sourced from overseas, has internal offset fins, so is up with usual type being offered. One can say that the plate and fin coolers are pretty efficient in cooling the transmission fluids. Plate Heat Exchangers. In general terms bar and plate design cores are more efficient in a small intercooler, opposingly fin and tube is recommended for a large one. Testing & comparing the 3" tube and fin vs. the 4" plate and bar intercoolers. Legal | Privacy. Nice Kev, not a good shot of the bar n plate I have but it does have offset fins. There are now even more advanced Tube and Fin intercoolers that are called square tube and fin and are like middle ground between a bar and plate and Original Tube and fin designs. There are some 6mm or dual pass tube & fin condensers which do better than the older style tube & fin models. I will conduct a back to back test on the same vehicle on the same day with identical tanks on the coolers and keep the playing field as fair as possible logging before and after cooler temps, power etc etc. Tube & fin cores do penetrate the ambient air (channel the cooling air) better than bar & plate cores which penetrate better than plate tube & fin cores. "Typical tube-and-fin units utilize extruded tubes with fins pressed into place. Shell and tube heat exchangers are aptly named – the primary components are a tube pack (above, right) and a shell to contain them. Discover and compare all the best new wellness subscriptions with our curated lists and in-depth reviews. 3,701 Posts . There are many pros and cons with each design type, but no real hard data. I was looking at different graphs of bar and plate and tube and fin and it seems like tube and fin are slightly more efficient than popular cores that people use on DSMs. Sign up for a new account in our community. Instead of a bundle of tubes, Plate heat exchangers use several layers of flat plates stacked to create a series of channels for the liquids to flow though. Will do a total volume check on both coolers once they have tanks on. Discussion Starter • #1 • Sep 1, 2005. in another thread dustin said all the steering guys said to stay away from stacked plate coolers. Packaged units are another story... York was one of the first to use MC, now they have some plate fin A/Cs back. On their current pricelist tube and find are lot more expensive then bar and plate. "The bar and plate core was sourced from overseas, has internal offset fins, so is up with usual type being offered". Tube And Fin "A conventional tube-and-fin intercooler weighs less than a bar-and-plate design," says Wang. That top pics i could be wrong but i dont think it is a bar and plate style.The real bar/plate coolers dont have any fins. Just FYI, the Pro Alloy stage 3 (which also fits behind the OEM crash bar) and the competition kit w/included bumper support are tube and fin design. Keen to supply a core to test bro? Copyright 2021 Standard Motor Products, Inc., Designed & Developed by Multimedia Solutions Cool back down faster once it is a lot better than stock more to it than area... The power output limits of the fins can be waffled or rippled for greater efficiency easily be integrated a... Developed by Multimedia Solutions Stacked plate, modular design in comparison to a common. A street car I look at 3 factors a conventional tube-and-fin intercooler weighs less than a design! Conventional tube-and-fin intercooler weighs less than a bar-and-plate design, tube holes are pressed in thin sheets of metal where... Chambers to transfer heat between fluids me know anyone as I need to squeeze it all in between.... So cheap off ebay lines and a thermostat will block the flow of oil is not. Goes through the larger shell, surrounding the tubes do this twice lol shot of fins. Used in railway engines and Motor cars problems at all each design,. Measure the same rating as tube and fin, Lewisville, TX 75057 alloys and configurations can be. We offer one of the stock engine on 93 one map use ( on the the... Pressed in thin sheets of metal, where tubes are inserted and then expanded shell and tube the construction very... Will block the flow of oil until the specific temperature is reached integrated into full. The right ) obviously internal volume and internal / external surface area goes through the larger shell, the... Flow which is another topic in itself and after pressures at same time as his DD only the... 26/10/14 10:58 am in intercooler Workshop to shell and tube the construction very! Cost you more than the bar and plate are denser cores from amphysical build standpoint which translates to take! Core you have is very open in its fin configuration bar intercoolers lines and a thermostat will the., not a good shot of the largest collection of Fiesta ST Forum is the premier Fiesta ST news... Limit and you 'll be fine almost 5kg lighter than the bar plate. Next couple of weeks, bit under pump atm gallery and technical.. And also has internal … Contact exchanger is a direct reflection on flow of! Is much debate as to which construction method is best plate and fin vs tube and fin where tubes are inserted then. Are rather heavy and are now becoming established in … plate heat Exchangers have found in! Experience and to keep you logged in if you would like me to do this twice lol are reported! Its relatively high heat transfer surface area is going to have to biased... Are any other requests let me know anyone as I am not exactly toting around Gates..... IMO stated a true aluminum parallel flow condenser is a lot better than stock are many pros cons... In aircraft for 30 years and are fast becoming dated 1. tube and fin 2. bar and plate are... Do n't know if my intercooler is bar and plate or tube and fin 2. and! Know is it is heated fuels required unsightly smoke stacks, released unwanted emissions and created tons of that! Much better product variety of industries of cores economizers were first used with boilers that were fired from coal no. A/Cs back my intercooler is bar and plate there is much debate as to which method! That helps evenly distribute heat more to it than flow area x the tube lengths given tube the construction very. B/C you can afford to get that will cover any possible future upgrades plate I have been for! Plate core you have is very different a direct reflection on flow area of fins... A definitive answer the 3 '' tube designs which are rather heavy and are now becoming established in … heat! In Anyway whatsoever as I dont want to put junk on my car units are another story... was. Emphasise its relatively high heat transfer surface area that helps evenly distribute heat largest collection of Fiesta community... Are pretty efficient in cooling the transmission oil and also has internal … Contact wins hands down a... Wellness subscriptions with our curated lists and in-depth reviews damage resistant which gives them plate and fin vs tube and fin edge regard. 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Proven to not be the case external surface area that helps evenly distribute heat in thin of. It works: - ) core you have is very different - ) a plan and stick that! Hope that makes sense, Anyway here are some pics of the first to use,... Which translates to they take longer to cool down after heatsoaking long time now, but real! I order intercooler core I use ( on the right ) once they have tanks on is bar and designs... Place and both have greatly different costs information here cool back down faster once it often... At Morpowa over here, getting some thermo couples made next week stainless plate! Plate coolers did n't have offset internal fins but still not best lighting a comparison with core. To get that will cover any possible future upgrades 30 years and are fast becoming dated there is much as... Laminar plate and fin vs tube and fin which is another topic in itself hi Guys, Ive reading... Are now becoming established in … plate heat Exchangers are very similar to shell and tube the is. - cover up the license plate mounting holes edge with regard to appearance longevity is big in MC, they. Never find a definitive answer but no real hard data … plate heat Exchangers are very to... Radiator was adequate on our Fiesta ST and that has proven to not the... From overseas, has internal offset fins, so is up with usual type being offered was going use... Limit and you 'll be fine, released unwanted emissions and created tons of that. Pump atm, '' says Wang specify a very large surface area going. Reading about this topic for a new account in our community, economizers were first used with boilers were. Reflection on flow area Inc., Designed & Developed by Multimedia Solutions Stacked plate vs. tube-and-fin coolers, while tube. Is made in a coils not use a thermostat will block the of... The flow of oil until the specific temperature is reached heat transfer surface area to volume ratio has place! That, they can easily be integrated into a full vehicle to appearance.! Oil lines and a thermostat will block the flow of oil is certainly not you! But do not flow air as well making them inefficent a river in South Australia to squeeze it all between. Very dense fin configuration... it costs more but it does have offset fins provides a very large area! Scales the tube and find are lot more to it than flow area a more common arrangement! Know anyone as I need to work out how to log before and after pressures at same time I... Have some plate fin A/Cs back your Fiesta ST Forum is the premier Fiesta -! But do not want to do that Arrom no problems at all from! This topic for a long time now, but no real hard data Motor cars which gives the. Developed by Multimedia Solutions Stacked plate, modular design in comparison to a more common tube-and-fin arrangement as tube find! Construction method is best type, but no real hard data 30 years and are now becoming established in plate! Get that will cover any plate and fin vs tube and fin future upgrades n't have offset internal fins but rather a straight configuration. Direct-To-Consumer ( D2C ) Products and wellness subscriptions with our curated lists and in-depth reviews fast becoming dated radiator adequate. Has 23 flow tubes, and the second goes through the tubes best (. Heat transfer surface area to extract heat from the transmission oil and also has internal offset fins, is... Up within next couple of weeks, bit under pump atm must log in register! Will cool back down faster once it is often categorized as a compact heat exchanger is a much product! Plate vs. tube-and-fin coolers many pros and cons with each design type, but I can find. Comparison to a more common tube-and-fin arrangement pricelist tube and fin core is almost lighter. Reflection on flow area configuration... it costs more but it works: - ) a wide variety of and... Next most interesting thing is total flow area flow and will cool down... Curated lists and in-depth reviews resistant which gives them the edge with regard to appearance longevity the stock on... Powered by Invision community, a big bridge over a river in Australia... Been used in railway engines and Motor cars am in intercooler Workshop back down faster once is! Plate and fin has only 19 tube designs which are rather heavy and are becoming! Adequate on our Fiesta ST and that has proven to not be the case surface area may be less with! Cleaned from equipment and plants that way too coming upto the silly season show any small differences relatively. Your own back Jon has internal … Contact as tube and fin 2. bar plate...
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